Frederick

Being a lover of NYC, and having once lived there and having relatives there now your position is, frankly, ridiculous.

You would have no policeman. A policeman has to be able to protect himself.

It surprises me how many people, who have never been in a life threatening situation, or even a potentially life threatening situation constantly second guess those who are put in one.

I can certainly get on board with more training, better pay, etc for cops, but are you willing to pay for it? Are you willing to forego some other aspect of service to have them trained for months and months, instead of a much shorter time?

Most New Yorkers I know say, no way.

Frederick:

My point was that most New Yorkers are not willing to pay for that.

Also, you completely miss the difference between Iraq and the USA. The soldiers in Iraq need not knock when they rush a house, they do not have the constraints that the police here have. If this had occurred in NYC, ie, a car full of unknown men which was used, being nice, as a potential weapon and the soldiers heard someone in the car say get the weapons, you can be assured that the car would have been riddled with .223 holes.

There are many imponderables here. I saw a video once of a confrontation between a police officer and a potential perp. The cop was demanding that the guy (after a chase) throw up his hands, not to move, get on the ground. Screaming it at him. The guy reached into his jacket and pulled something out that looked like a gun, the cop shot him. It was a cellphone.

Fact is that here, according to the articles I have read, the cops had identified themselves and after such identification one was hit by Bell's car (or the car he was in). One of the cops heard one of the guys with Bell say "Yo, go get my gun."

Bad facts. I would like citations as to other nations which have tighter restrictions on the use of firearms (by police).

One thing which is not mentioned here, is the subliminal issues. How many incidents of violence have occurred between blacks, at nightclubs, because of minimal arguments? How many have involved illegal firearms? How does that work into the mind of police involved in a potentially explosive situation?

These are the issues, behind the issues. One which people should really talk about, consider. But, due to the unwritten rule that you can't talk about these things, then they go unsaid, though everyone understands and knows about them.

All weird, all strange.

Frederick:

As to England cops not carrying guns, that has and is changing.

Here is a NYT op/ed:

Ny Times re: arming Brits

Also, England is experiencing horrific increases in armed robberies. The tighter they control the ownership of private guns, the higher number of armed robberies and other violent crimes are committed. Seems to be a pretty direct correlation there.

Again, I hate to say this but many times it is the word of the police officer against "perps." I am sure that cops lie, many have I suppose to protect their own butts. But so do those who are saying the cops acted improperly. In fact, people lie, period.

The crux of my argument is that we need to look at why there is such fear, and how we can help our officers develop strategies that both protect them and the people they are confronting. Don't you?

Yup. And one of the issues is the purposeful elevation of violence for violence's sake in the black community. Seems to me that the manner in which many in the black community pray at the altar of violent people, violent music, violence, violence, violence, is one of the reasons people believe that blacks (especially if dressed in certain ways, or if they exhibit certain language, actions) are more prone to violence.

Is that something the cops should address? Probably, but probably not in the way you mean.

Is this a tragedy, yup. It is also tragic when humans who act like animals go around killing and maiming for sport. Which type of tragedy happens more often? Should we not act to address the more prevalent tragedy first?

I agree that all police officers should receive more training, and more specialized training, especially with firearms. But there are many underlying reasons for the way officers act towards certain segments of the population, and all of us, including those people in those segments of the population should understand this.

wmolaw,

Apparently, you don't know many black people. For you to encapsulate the entirety of African American culture-- those who were brought here in shackles, subjected to an unspeakable existence, rise up, get beat down, rise up, get beat down, rise up, get beat down, by a historically violent culture....-- into the ghetto mentality that plagues many communities now, is at best irresponsible. At least have some clue of what you're talking about. Black people have contributed so much to this country and received so much disdain. Blamed for psychological and emotional ills that were not of their making. America wouldn't be what it is today without the four hundred years of free labor from the millions of African people that were brutally stolen from their homeland and the subsequent jewels that have blessed this land since. The best and the brightest were taken and the evidence of that ability is clear when one studies the fullness of black history. And now, a portion of this culture is in jeopardy of self-annihilation. The manifestation of a self-hatred that, while may be self-perpetuated, was not self-generated. I guess you believe that this is due to some inherent flaw in the African genome. Nevermind the violence that's been systematically perpetuated against blacks by the police, in general, and the NYC police in particular. Amadou Bailo Diallo's violent death has been well documented. Another case of wrongful overkill where the cops got off without even a slap on the wrist. But I guess, for you, it doesn't matter. They're all a bunch of inconsequentials?? Nevermind the fact that black against white violence falls short in the history of violence in America, when compared to the senseless, shameless, and violent acts of whites against blacks, even today. All Americans have far more to fear from the ever stockpiling brotherhood of Tim McVey who live comfortably in relative anonymity, in the mountains of Montana. I can understand why you might not want to consider the consequences of slavery, or the benefits of being white in America. Nevermind that many Americans of all hues have suffered at the hands of over-zealous police officers with too little training and far too much power. Your perspective, wmolaw, seems extremely narrow and lacking in any real intro and/or circumspection.

gold:

Look, the fact is that a segment of the black population (and it has leeched out into other segments of other populations) glorifies violence, glorifies crime, glorifies weapons, glorifies killing cops, etc. This is a fact.

You can argue all you want about WHY they do this, but a cop on the street could care less.

There is also no doubt but that the percentage of violent crime committed by blacks is much higher than the percentage of blacks in the population.

Bureau of Justice Stats

Whether it is black against black, or black against white, blacks commit a far greater percentage of violent crime than their representation in society warrants.

Although the reasons "why" can be discussed ad infinitum, although it can be investigated and hopefully addressed rationally, the fact is that it is happening NOW, and the cops know it, you should know it, and the population as a whole should know it.

They (the cops and, indeed, the population as a whole) must deal with the reality today, not the "what if" issues you wish to discuss.

And it seems to me that everyone, including the black leaders, the black community, must then seek to address the issues which cause this violent behavior.

Frederick:

It is an endeavor which must be shared by all segments of the population.

Cops are humans, humans have emotions, and emotions can cause actions.

Cops also have power and are usually armed. Hence, it should be lesson 101 that when confronted by a cop one should not exacerbate or inflame the situation.

That lesson is lost on many, many people.